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	<title>Comments on: Avoiding The Startup Stall-Spin</title>
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	<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin</link>
	<description>Design, Entrepreneurship, Economics and Software</description>
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		<title>By: Rich F</title>
		<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin#comment-1045</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 00:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://davetroy.com/?p=1238#comment-1045</guid>
		<description>Barring obvious issues associated with specific languages and approaches, you might want to reduce the compliance of candidates by removing any specificity for a language.  Today&#039;s languages are polished and advanced.  If you support the developer(s) and their choice of language, then the shortfalls can be made up with scaling.  Acceleration these days with cheap hardware can open up a bunch of opportunities during team building.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barring obvious issues associated with specific languages and approaches, you might want to reduce the compliance of candidates by removing any specificity for a language.  Today&#39;s languages are polished and advanced.  If you support the developer(s) and their choice of language, then the shortfalls can be made up with scaling.  Acceleration these days with cheap hardware can open up a bunch of opportunities during team building.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich F</title>
		<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin#comment-1044</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://davetroy.com/?p=1238#comment-1044</guid>
		<description>Great article.  I can&#039;t tell you how often I see this happening.  They have little money, they aren&#039;t developers, they have little or no business experience...or all 3.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Use Omnigraffle for prototyping.  In this day and age, people know how websites look and behave.  If you&#039;re talking to money  people that don&#039;t understand these, then run away quick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article.  I can&#39;t tell you how often I see this happening.  They have little money, they aren&#39;t developers, they have little or no business experience&#8230;or all 3.  </p>
<p>Use Omnigraffle for prototyping.  In this day and age, people know how websites look and behave.  If you&#39;re talking to money  people that don&#39;t understand these, then run away quick.</p>
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		<title>By: Akshay</title>
		<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin#comment-1042</link>
		<dc:creator>Akshay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Aug 2010 09:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://davetroy.com/?p=1238#comment-1042</guid>
		<description>Dave - your article has impeccable timing. I had to recently decide between completely shutting down the development of my startup idea and hiring a team when my original co-founder did not pan out. I went with the latter and am in the midst of development. So far so good. I think one caveat is also what kind of developers are hired, I find that mine are very collaborative to my vision, not very expensive and only  took up my project because they found it really interesting. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This is the route that Matt mentions and I do think that I will end up following his path. Although I am hoping that the launch will be successful and that this will automatically attract some quality technical co-founders, I don&#039;t expect this fairy tale to come true. What I am hoping for is that having a completed prototype and a bit of market response etc will make it much easier to actually reach out to people who could become co-founders. In the meanwhile I can continue to build the project using my mercenaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave &#8211; your article has impeccable timing. I had to recently decide between completely shutting down the development of my startup idea and hiring a team when my original co-founder did not pan out. I went with the latter and am in the midst of development. So far so good. I think one caveat is also what kind of developers are hired, I find that mine are very collaborative to my vision, not very expensive and only  took up my project because they found it really interesting. </p>
<p>This is the route that Matt mentions and I do think that I will end up following his path. Although I am hoping that the launch will be successful and that this will automatically attract some quality technical co-founders, I don&#39;t expect this fairy tale to come true. What I am hoping for is that having a completed prototype and a bit of market response etc will make it much easier to actually reach out to people who could become co-founders. In the meanwhile I can continue to build the project using my mercenaries.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin#comment-1018</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 06:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://davetroy.com/?p=1238#comment-1018</guid>
		<description>I keep meaning to write some sort of blog post about the tension between the desire to start a company with a big team and the difficulty in convincing a large number of people to actually join a start-up absent fund-raising validation.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For investors, who should generally be accredited, convincing them to invest some small portion of their net worth, or in the case of a VC, a couple of dollars that he was planning to invest anyway, seems like a much lower hurdle than convincing a colleague to quit his guaranteed income to go without income for a period of time.  He is giving you 100% of his capital because that is what he has to offer.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Huge risk for people.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Convincing people to join your company - people would have to be nuts to take on such risk - is an incredibly good mechanism for convincing an investor that an idea has merit because the people that joined the idea originator took far bigger risks than the investors will ever take.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Hence, &quot;finding a co-founder&quot; after the idea is originated is incredibly hard.  People participating in the act of creation have part of the buy-in necessary to actually do something.  People found after the fact are being &quot;sold&quot; the idea.  This is harder to do.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Better to befriend engineers and then come up with the idea than come up with an idea and then look for a co-founder.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(Even this comment is poorly written.  No wonder I haven&#039;t cranked out that blog post yet.  Excuse the low quality of the comment, but there is a nugget of something here.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I keep meaning to write some sort of blog post about the tension between the desire to start a company with a big team and the difficulty in convincing a large number of people to actually join a start-up absent fund-raising validation.</p>
<p>For investors, who should generally be accredited, convincing them to invest some small portion of their net worth, or in the case of a VC, a couple of dollars that he was planning to invest anyway, seems like a much lower hurdle than convincing a colleague to quit his guaranteed income to go without income for a period of time.  He is giving you 100% of his capital because that is what he has to offer.</p>
<p>Huge risk for people.</p>
<p>Convincing people to join your company &#8211; people would have to be nuts to take on such risk &#8211; is an incredibly good mechanism for convincing an investor that an idea has merit because the people that joined the idea originator took far bigger risks than the investors will ever take.</p>
<p>Hence, &#8220;finding a co-founder&#8221; after the idea is originated is incredibly hard.  People participating in the act of creation have part of the buy-in necessary to actually do something.  People found after the fact are being &#8220;sold&#8221; the idea.  This is harder to do.</p>
<p>Better to befriend engineers and then come up with the idea than come up with an idea and then look for a co-founder.</p>
<p>(Even this comment is poorly written.  No wonder I haven&#39;t cranked out that blog post yet.  Excuse the low quality of the comment, but there is a nugget of something here.)</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Mireles</title>
		<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin#comment-1017</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Mireles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 03:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://davetroy.com/?p=1238#comment-1017</guid>
		<description>sure. I&#039;d love to, although I&#039;m packing up a uhaul and moving to California with my cofounders on wed. not sure if i&#039;ll have time before that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sure. I&#39;d love to, although I&#39;m packing up a uhaul and moving to California with my cofounders on wed. not sure if i&#39;ll have time before that.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Troy</title>
		<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin#comment-1016</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Troy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:46:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://davetroy.com/?p=1238#comment-1016</guid>
		<description>Matt - been thinking about your comments and wondered if you would like to write a &quot;counterpoint&quot; post to mine.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think you make some very good points about what it takes to make the process you went through survivable.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think in combination with my other post it would tell both sides of the story very well and serve my original intention of keeping people out of an uncontrolled death-spiral.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;You up for it? You could post on your blog and I could cross post here as a guest post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt &#8211; been thinking about your comments and wondered if you would like to write a &#8220;counterpoint&#8221; post to mine.</p>
<p>I think you make some very good points about what it takes to make the process you went through survivable.</p>
<p>I think in combination with my other post it would tell both sides of the story very well and serve my original intention of keeping people out of an uncontrolled death-spiral.</p>
<p>You up for it? You could post on your blog and I could cross post here as a guest post.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Mireles</title>
		<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin#comment-1015</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Mireles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://davetroy.com/?p=1238#comment-1015</guid>
		<description>Fair enough. But I come from NYC where all my friends are desperately looking for and would LOVE to have a technical co-founder off the bat, but can&#039;t find them because the supply of tech talent is soooo short.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough. But I come from NYC where all my friends are desperately looking for and would LOVE to have a technical co-founder off the bat, but can&#39;t find them because the supply of tech talent is soooo short.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Troy</title>
		<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin#comment-1014</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Troy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:29:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://davetroy.com/?p=1238#comment-1014</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not saying don&#039;t try to get off the ground. I&#039;m saying don&#039;t be stupid about it and take bets you can&#039;t afford to lose.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I agree that the only thing that matters is that you &quot;make progress, build the team, and get customers,&quot; to an extent.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But suppose you ultimately don&#039;t get customers? Suppose you overpay to build something no one else will work on? That&#039;s a far too common story.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And when those folks stall-spin, they hit the ground hard and can&#039;t recover, primarily because they don&#039;t know how.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Matt, I think you have all the right instincts about what to do and when to do it, but so many don&#039;t. All I am saying is if you want to weather the storm, most people will have a better time with a strong technical co-founder as part of their team -- which might even be a team of one to start with.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Just because you survived your own stall-spin doesn&#039;t make it ideal. :)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;However, you did learn from it and are sticking with entrepreneurship. Too many go through the same experience and get turned off -- never to start a business again.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think if we want to make entrepreneurship a cultural norm, we need to focus a lot more on relationship-building. Ultimately that will mean less severe stalls and more people being successful at it. Right now it&#039;s just something people survive. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m not saying don&#39;t try to get off the ground. I&#39;m saying don&#39;t be stupid about it and take bets you can&#39;t afford to lose.</p>
<p>I agree that the only thing that matters is that you &#8220;make progress, build the team, and get customers,&#8221; to an extent.</p>
<p>But suppose you ultimately don&#39;t get customers? Suppose you overpay to build something no one else will work on? That&#39;s a far too common story.</p>
<p>And when those folks stall-spin, they hit the ground hard and can&#39;t recover, primarily because they don&#39;t know how.</p>
<p>Matt, I think you have all the right instincts about what to do and when to do it, but so many don&#39;t. All I am saying is if you want to weather the storm, most people will have a better time with a strong technical co-founder as part of their team &#8212; which might even be a team of one to start with.</p>
<p>Just because you survived your own stall-spin doesn&#39;t make it ideal. <img src='http://davetroy.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>However, you did learn from it and are sticking with entrepreneurship. Too many go through the same experience and get turned off &#8212; never to start a business again.</p>
<p>I think if we want to make entrepreneurship a cultural norm, we need to focus a lot more on relationship-building. Ultimately that will mean less severe stalls and more people being successful at it. Right now it&#39;s just something people survive. <img src='http://davetroy.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Matt Mireles</title>
		<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin#comment-1013</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Mireles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://davetroy.com/?p=1238#comment-1013</guid>
		<description>Oh I&#039;m definitely with you on the do it cheaply thing. One of the things we did was hire college students at job fair to do freelance work. Paid them in iPhones. This allowed us to &quot;try before we buy&quot; and build relationships at low cost. Ultimately, one of the college fair hires grew into a genuine co-founder. Now we live together and he&#039;s the company treasurer.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I guess the big thing i&#039;ve seen non-technical people miss that you nailed is the importance of cultivating long term relationships. No one wants to be the hired help in a startup––they want to feel ownership, and I definitely agree that lots of people miss out on this and think they can get away with not sharing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh I&#39;m definitely with you on the do it cheaply thing. One of the things we did was hire college students at job fair to do freelance work. Paid them in iPhones. This allowed us to &#8220;try before we buy&#8221; and build relationships at low cost. Ultimately, one of the college fair hires grew into a genuine co-founder. Now we live together and he&#39;s the company treasurer.</p>
<p>I guess the big thing i&#39;ve seen non-technical people miss that you nailed is the importance of cultivating long term relationships. No one wants to be the hired help in a startup––they want to feel ownership, and I definitely agree that lots of people miss out on this and think they can get away with not sharing.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Mireles</title>
		<link>http://davetroy.com/posts/avoiding-the-startup-stall-spin#comment-1012</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Mireles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://davetroy.com/?p=1238#comment-1012</guid>
		<description>At least in the stall spin you have altitude to lose! Your advice seems to be &quot;don&#039;t even try to get off the ground.&quot; This bothers me.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Who cares if you throw the prototype out? Who cares if you switch from PHP to Rails? That&#039;s all sunk costs. The only thing that matters is that you make progress, build the team and get customers. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Case in point: SpeakerText. My original co-founder built the site in PHP and the app in Flash. The product kind of sucked, but there were some cool features, it got the idea across and we used it to get some good press. He ultimately wasn&#039;t ready to commit and we did the whole stall spin thing you describe (although we parted ways amicably and he still helps out from time to time). Burned through some cash, our angel round imploded, etc. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;HOWEVER, I was able to leverage that initial momentum and press to build relationships with the top angel investors in the world and ultimately find long term technical co-founders. The three of us have been living together for the last two months and have rebuilt both the site and the app from scratch, now using real hardcore technology that we built ourselves. And it is going to be  awesome.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Was it a perfectly optimal upward trajectory? No. But if I didn&#039;t try it, I don&#039;t think we would have ever gotten off the ground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least in the stall spin you have altitude to lose! Your advice seems to be &#8220;don&#39;t even try to get off the ground.&#8221; This bothers me.</p>
<p>Who cares if you throw the prototype out? Who cares if you switch from PHP to Rails? That&#39;s all sunk costs. The only thing that matters is that you make progress, build the team and get customers. </p>
<p>Case in point: SpeakerText. My original co-founder built the site in PHP and the app in Flash. The product kind of sucked, but there were some cool features, it got the idea across and we used it to get some good press. He ultimately wasn&#39;t ready to commit and we did the whole stall spin thing you describe (although we parted ways amicably and he still helps out from time to time). Burned through some cash, our angel round imploded, etc. </p>
<p>HOWEVER, I was able to leverage that initial momentum and press to build relationships with the top angel investors in the world and ultimately find long term technical co-founders. The three of us have been living together for the last two months and have rebuilt both the site and the app from scratch, now using real hardcore technology that we built ourselves. And it is going to be  awesome.</p>
<p>Was it a perfectly optimal upward trajectory? No. But if I didn&#39;t try it, I don&#39;t think we would have ever gotten off the ground.</p>
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